Do Continuous Effects on a Card Continue if Its Phased Out Mtg
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two very simple questions on phasing
Source: https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/781185-two-very-simple-questions-on-phasing
#1 Aug 9, 2017
the new teferi's protection card has phasing
does "phase in" happen before the upkeep? (it saids it happens on the untap phase.)
and do the counter's get removed from permanents from phasing
if the first one is yes and the second is no. I got a despicable idea with it.
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#2 Aug 9, 2017
The first one is yes (untap step DOES come before upkeep step, as it is the first step of the beginning phase).
The second one is no; a permanent that phases out has none of its counters, Auras, or Equipment removed because it is in fact still in the same zone. It just does not exist until it phases back in.
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I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
#3 Aug 9, 2017
Yes, phasing occurs in the Untap step. Any counters will remain on the card and anything attached to it phases in and out along with it.
Here are some rules on phasing:
502. Untap Step
502.1. First, all phased-in permanents with phasing that the active player controls phase out, and all phased-out permanents that the active player controlled when they phased out phase in. This all happens simultaneously. This turn-based action doesn't use the stack. See rule 702.25, "Phasing."
702.25. Phasing
702.25a. Phasing is a static ability that modifies the rules of the untap step. During each player's untap step, before the active player untaps his or her permanents, all phased-in permanents with phasing that player controls "phase out." Simultaneously, all phased-out permanents that had phased out under that player's control "phase in."
702.25b. If a permanent phases out, its status changes to "phased out." Except for rules and effects that specifically mention phased-out permanents, a phased-out permanent is treated as though it does not exist. It can't affect or be affected by anything else in the game. A permanent that phases out is removed from combat. (See rule 506.4.)
Example: You control three creatures, one of which is phased out. You cast a spell that says "Draw a card for each creature you control." You draw two cards.
Example: You control a phased-out creature. You cast a spell that says "Destroy all creatures." The phased-out creature is not destroyed.
702.25c. If a permanent phases in, its status changes to "phased in." The game once again treats it as though it exists.
702.25d. The phasing event doesn't actually cause a permanent to change zones or control, even though it's treated as though it's not on the battlefield and not under its controller's control while it's phased out. Zone-change triggers don't trigger when a permanent phases in or out. Counters remain on a permanent while it's phased out. Effects that check a phased-in permanent's history won't treat the phasing event as having caused the permanent to leave or enter the battlefield or its controller's control.
702.25e. Continuous effects that affect a phased-out permanent may expire while that permanent is phased out. If so, they will no longer affect that permanent once it's phased in. In particular, effects with "for as long as" durations that track that permanent (see rule 611.2b) end when that permanent phases out because they can no longer see it.
702.25f. When a permanent phases out, any Auras, Equipment, or Fortifications attached to that permanent phase out at the same time. This alternate way of phasing out is known as phasing out "indirectly." An Aura, Equipment, or Fortification that phased out indirectly won't phase in by itself, but instead phases in along with the permanent it's attached to.
702.25g. If an object would simultaneously phase out directly and indirectly, it just phases out indirectly.
702.25h. An Aura, Equipment, or Fortification that phased out directly will phase in attached to the object or player it was attached to when it phased out, if that object is still in the same zone or that player is still in the game. If not, that Aura, Equipment, or Fortification phases in unattached. State-based actions apply as appropriate. (See rules 704.5n and 704.5p.)
702.25i. Abilities that trigger when a permanent becomes attached or unattached from an object or player don't trigger when that permanent phases in or out.
702.25j. Phased-out permanents owned by a player who leaves the game also leave the game. This doesn't trigger zone-change triggers. See rule 800.4.
702.25k. Phased-out tokens cease to exist as a state-based action. See rule 704.5d.
702.25m. If an effect causes a player to skip his or her untap step, the phasing event simply doesn't occur that turn.
702.25n. Multiple instances of phasing on the same permanent are redundant.
Do note that tokens, when phased out, will cease to exist the next time State Based Actions are checked.I figured it was important enough to update this as an upcoming rules change changes the way tokens work when Phased out:
https://twitter.com/TabakRules/status/895349169593868288
Last edited by WizardMN: Aug 9, 2017
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#4 Aug 9, 2017
good so that mean upkeep triggers will happen on the turn they phase back in right?
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#5 Aug 9, 2017
Yes, phasing in and out happens in the untap step, before you untap your permanents.
Phasing does not make the permanent leave the battlefield, it is only treated as it it didn't exist. Auras and equipment attached to a permanent that phases out also phase out (they "phase out indirectly") and phase back in with it, still attached. Likewise with counters, nothing is removing them, they are just treated as if they didn't exist since the permanent they are on is treated that way. They are not actual game objects, so they don't phase in or out.
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Yeah, 5000 posts. Man, I'm old. Immortal One? Seems fitting.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
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#6 Aug 9, 2017
Yes.
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Yeah, 5000 posts. Man, I'm old. Immortal One? Seems fitting.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
#7 Aug 9, 2017
excellent so my evil trick will work
thank you very much guys
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#8 Aug 9, 2017
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#9 Aug 9, 2017
Nope, you're still good. Again, phasing doesn't cause anything to leave or reenter the battlefield; it's still the same object, so continuous effects that applied to it before will still apply to it. (In the case of Control Magic, this is also covered by the indirect phasing mechanism that Rezzahan described.)
Think of a permanent phasing out as though it's holding up a sign that says "I'm not here. Pay no attention to me." The game will oblige until it puts the sign down (phases in), then it will act like nothing happened.
One corner case/exception: If a control-changing effect (or any continuous effect, really) has a stated duration of "for as long as you control this permanent" (e.g. Willbreaker) and that permanent phases out, the effect will end because the game can't find that permanent.
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#10 Aug 9, 2017
If you controlled it when it phased out you control it when it phases in. Ownership does not factor in. So the owner does not get the phased out stolen permanent back.
So if the permanent phases out with a control changing aura attached, it will phase in with that aura still attached, still changing control.
A control change effect without a duration has no duration to expire, so it persist for the rest of the game, and still applies when the permanent phases back in. An Act of Treason or similar effect that expires while the permanent is phased out, will phase in and go right back to its previous controller. Similarly, with a control change effect based on you still controlling something else, if that something is gone, the permanent will phase in and go back to its previous controller. Or rather in both those cases, it will phase in with all your other phased out permanents, but under the other player's control.
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Yeah, 5000 posts. Man, I'm old. Immortal One? Seems fitting.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
#11 Aug 9, 2017
Bonus question, just to make sure i understand this:
Do equipments and auras attached to permanents i control phase out directly or inderectly, since teferi's protection say all your permanents phase out? Does this change anything about the equipments and auras phasing in attached to those permanents? Just want to make sure i can play this in my equip deck...
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modern:U W spirits, B R goblins
#12 Aug 9, 2017
Indirectly. There's actually an explicit rule for this:
Note, the only time where this really makes a difference is if you have an Aura or Equipment attached to a token. Phased-out tokens cease to exist as a SBA, thus can't phase in, and thus anything that phased out indirectly because it was attached to it can't phase in either.
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#13 Aug 9, 2017
This is an example of an effect that makes them "simultaneously phase out directly and indirectly," so it's just indirectly. The distinction is pretty much academic in this case; the card can safely be played in a Voltron deck (although I should say little more since this borders on strategy).
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I̟̥͍̠ͅn̩͉̣͍̬͚ͅ ̬̬͖t̯̹̞̺͖͓̯̤h̘͍̬e͙̯͈̖̼̮ ̭̬f̺̲̲̪i͙͉̟̩̰r̪̝͚͈̝̥͍̝̲s̼̻͇̘̳͔ͅt̲̺̳̗̜̪̙ ̳̺̥̻͚̗ͅm̜̜̟̰͈͓͎͇o̝̖̮̝͇m̯̻̞̼̫̗͓̤e̩̯̬̮̩n͎̱̪̲̹͖t͇̖s̰̮ͅ,̤̲͙̻̭̻̯̹̰ ̖t̫̙̺̯͖͚̯ͅh͙̯̦̳̗̰̟e͖̪͉̼̯ ̪͕g̞̣͔a̗̦t̬̬͓͙̫̖̭̻e̩̻̯ ̜̖̦̖̤̭͙̬t̞̹̥̪͎͉ͅo͕͚͍͇̲͇͓̺ ̭̬͙͈̣̻t͈͍͙͓̫̖͙̩h̪̬̖̙e̗͈ ̗̬̟̞̺̤͉̯ͅa̦̯͚̙̜̮f͉͙̲̣̞̼t̪̤̞̣͚e̲͉̳̥r͇̪̙͚͓l̥̞̞͎̹̯̹ͅi͓̬f̮̥̬̞͈ͅe͎ ̟̩̤̳̠̯̩̯o̮̘̲p̟͚̣̞͉͓e͍̩̣n͔̼͕͚̜e̬̱d̼̘͎̖̹͍̮̠,͖̺̭̱̮ ̣̲͖̬̪̭̥a̪͚n̟̲̝̤̤̞̗d̘̱̗͇̮͕̳͕͔ ͖̞͉͎t̹̙͎h̰̱͉̗e̪̞̱̝̹̩ͅ ̠̱̩̭̦p̯̙e͓o̳͚̰̯̺̱̰͔̘p̬͎̱̣̼̩͇l̗̟̖͚̠e̱͉͔̱̦̬̟̙ ̖͚̪͔̼̦w̺̖̤̱e͖̗̻̦͓̖̘̜r̭̥e͔̹̫̱͕̦̰͕ ̗͔̠p̠̗͍͍̱̳̠r̰͔͎̰o͉̥͓̰͚̥s̟͚̹̱͔̣t͉̙̳̖͖̪̮r̥̘̥͙̹a͉̟̫̟̳̠̟̭t͈̜̰͈͎e̞̣̭̲̬ ͚̗̯̟͙i͍͖̰̘̦͖͉ṇ̮̻̯̦̲̩͍ ̦̮͚̫̤t͉͖̫͕ͅͅh͙̮̻̘̣̮̼e͕̺ ͙l͕̠͎̰̥i̲͓͉̲g̫̳̟͈͇̖h̠̦̖t͓̯͎̗ ̳̪̘̟̙̩̦o̫̲f̙͔̰̙̠ ̹̪̗͇̯t͖̼̼͉͖̬h̹͇̩e͚̖̺̤͉̹͕̪ ͚͓̭̝̺G͎̗̯̩o̫̯̮̟̮̳̘d̜̲͙̠-̩̳̯̲̗̜P̹̘̥͉̝h͍͈̗̖̝ͅa͍̗̮̼̗r̜̖͇̙̺a̭̺͔̞̳͈o̪̣͓̯̬͙̯̰̗h̖̦͈̥̯͔.͇̣̙̝
#14 Aug 9, 2017
alright thanks for the replies
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modern:U W spirits, B R goblins
#15 Aug 10, 2017
Except this is changing with the release of C17. Tokens will phase in once the rules update occurs.
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#16 Aug 10, 2017
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#17 Sep 6, 2017
If I have a tapped Preacher granting me control of an opponent's creature, and they both phase out via Teferi's Protection, what is the outcome for the "captured" card?
Here's my line of thinking:
Assuming this is all correct, when does this control-change occur? Does it happen while the card is phased out (in which case, it will phase back in during the captured-card's owner's next untap step), or does it remain under the control of the Preacher's controller (in which case, it would phase back in during Preacher's controller's next untap step, at which point the captured card's owner would regain control of it)?
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#18 Sep 6, 2017
You're correct about Preacher's effect ending when it phases out.
As for your question, the answer lies in the first subrule of Phasing:
So the creature phases in during the Preacher player's untap step, but under its appropirate controller's control. Technically, the creature changes controller immediately after it phases out, but we still need to know during whose untap step it should phase in, so that rule tells us.
Moderator note : This is no big deal, but in the future, we would ask you to create a new thread for a new question rather than hijacking an existing one, even if it's about the same card or mechanic, unless your question is a true follow-up that really requires the context of the thread. With your question answered, I'm going to lock this to avoid it becoming a repository for future phasing questions.
Last edited by MadMageQc: Sep 6, 2017
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I'm a former judge (lapsed), who keeps up to date on rules and policy. Keep in mind that judges' answers aren't necessarily more valid than those of people who aren't judges; what matters is we can quote the rules to back up our answers. When in doubt, ask for such quotes.